One discussion has been very interesting, and unless you read the responses people give, you may be missing this one, so I'm catching you up to date...here is my latest response to this discussion:
And still, Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey my commands." Why?
Paul said in Romans 1:5:
"Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith."
Faith brings obedience; love brings obedience.I'm not saying that obedience brings faith or obedience brings love. Faith and love are the relational motive - obedience is the outpouring of the two.
"If you love me, obey me" - Jesus
"Obedience is the result of faith" - Paul
You can see why I am still of the mind that obedience is our calling. Jesus even said of His relationship to the Father in John 14:31:
"...but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me."
He loves the Father, so He obeys the Father.
Peter, when addressing God's elect, said in 1 Peter 1:1-2:
"To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:"
We were chosen by God, and sanctified by The Spirit for obedience to Christ.
No, Jesus is not ticked when we don't get it all right. That is not my point. But He has called us to obedience by His Spirit's power, through faith, because of our love for Him. It is the way He has given to show our love.
Are you ticked when your kids don't show you love? When your children disobey you, isn't it more of a sense of hurt and sadness that you feel? Deliberate and obstinate disobedience may make you a little angry, but when you know that kids have to learn obedience, you discipline them because you love them, not because you are ticked at them.
Look at Hebrews 12:6-7, then:
"...because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"
It is a relational comparison (and a human one) that God's word uses to describe the relationship He has with us. He disciplines, we endure - two-way street. He died and rose again for us, we obey Him - two-way street.
Otherwise, it is like Jesus said when He died for us, "I love you," and we just have to say, "Thank you." Try that with your spouse some time.
Obedience, by Jesus' own words, says more than just "Thank you;" it says, "I love you, too, Jesus."
It is the difference between giving Him my life, or just inviting Him into my life; between dying to myself, or just letting Him die for me; between claiming to believe, and living out our belief.
"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."
- 2 John 1:6
8 comments:
I'm trying to find the conversation, and I can't find it!!
It's in the "You Know God; Does He Know You" item comments.
I like the "I love you" - "Thank you" comparison.
Rob Bell's last tour was called "The Gods aren't angry" Typical, I think, of the message that is popular right now. I've heard it several ways in different forms.
A pastor in my town even said confidently, "God doesn't care about your sin!" He has a Word of Faith background. It's all over the place.
I think that is a belief that is based more on theory than in Scripture. It sounds like something God would think but show me the verse that says it. It isn't there.
I recommend listening to this sermon:
Hell's Best Kept Secret by Ray Comfort. Here is the link:
http://www.dayspringchristian.org/AV/hbks.mp3
It will make you think. Obedience absolutely matters and if it doesn't matter to you than you should read 1st John:
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(1 John 2:4 NIV)
Yikes! Read all five chapters.
I would like to second the motion that:
He has called us to obedience by His Spirit's power, through faith, because of our love for Him.
And add the motion that: He Loves us with an Everlasting Love.
I focus more on the idea of receiving God’s love because I know it produces love in me, and it removes the option of doing something to earn His love. So I’m sticking with it.
The highest calling is to love.
The highest calling used to be obedience, but that was the old covenant. Jesus apparently thought coming and dying and overcoming was worth making that change.
Here is a thought, from a couple entries ago, John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.
Jesus knows we won’t obey him until we truly love him. He knows that love comes first.
If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.
So He knows when we do love him, we will obey His teaching!!
He is not giving us reasons to exclude us, he’s telling us a Truth about the Power of Love. When we love Him, when we turn our hearts toward Him, He sucks us in to His Love and Transforms us! And this supernatural process has a supernatural by-product: obedience, following His word.
Revelation of Love! Produces Lovers of God! Overflows into all aspects of life and fruit!
Paul: Be rooted and established in Love!!! Ephesians 4:16-20
P.S. "I Love you. Thank You. Try that with your spouse." Are you saying that if God were my spouse, he’d probably be a little ticked?
I think you are! You totally are! Kind of, a little bit, I don’t know! It's not a far leap!
I wonder for Phil, since I don't have the ability to MP3, and I haven't heard of Rob Bell, are you pro-Angry God, or con? I go by Isaiah 54 on the anger issue. And by Song of Solomon in which there is not one rebuke. Beloved!
Sue,
I am not trying to exasperate you or in any way offend you. I hope you know that. I read a little frustration in your last comment, but please know that I think this is a very important conversation to complete, and I appreciate your views even if I may disagree on some points.
I want to be very honest with what I am about to say, so I need to preface my following statements with a 100% guarantee that I am not being snide or sarcastic in any way. I am explaining why we are still having this conversation after a few comments of each side back and forth, and why I am not just letting it sit, just yet. In all love, I have the following statements to make:
This last comment post was probably the clearest explanation you have given of your views and what you are trying to communicate. I have not, until now, inferred from you any belief that obedience plays a part at all in our relationship with Jesus. That has been a huge concern to me. You may have thought it was implied before, but that message has not been received until this last post.
Here is where you and I part ways in a very major way:
You said:
The highest calling is to love.
The highest calling used to be obedience, but that was the old covenant. Jesus apparently thought coming and dying and overcoming was worth making that change.
I am saying:
Love = Obedience; not that obedience earns love, but that obedience is love. Jesus is the one who told us that to love Him is to obey Him. He didn’t change that, He affirmed it in His own teaching. I cannot claim to love God and not live to obey Him. Obedience was taught by Jesus, exampled by Jesus, and is now empowered by Jesus, through His Spirit in us.
You said:
Are you saying that if God were my spouse, he’d probably be a little ticked?
I think you are! You totally are! Kind of, a little bit, I don’t know! It's not a far leap!
I am saying:
If I said to my wife when we were getting married, “I love you, Rachel,” and she said, “Thank you,” I would not be ticked, I would assume the love was not returned. I would be heart-broken and feel there was no relationship, but I would not be “ticked”. That is not the necessary conclusion to draw.
As I said before, Jesus showed He loved us when He died for us while we were still sinners. Now that I understand that, I want to show Him my love back. The way we do that is to obey Him. That has been my consistent premise throughout this conversation, and it seems that you almost agreed with me when you said,
Jesus knows we won’t obey him until we truly love him. He knows that love comes first.
If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.
So He knows when we do love him, we will obey His teaching!!
I read this and thought, “That is what I have been saying. Where is the communication breaking down, then?”
Jesus loved us first, that drove Him to the cross. We love Him for doing this and saving our souls from the eternal hell that was our future without Jesus. So when I read the scripture and ask the question, “How do I then show Him my love in return? What gift can I give back to Jesus?” The answer Jesus Himself gave us was this:
“If you love me, obey my commands.”
Now, have I helped? Have I driven the wedge deeper? I think we agree more than we know, but we're adressing it from two different angles.
Ryan, I appreciate this discussion. It has challenged me, and helped me to understand what I believe. Like you said, we’re not that far apart.
I hope you can bear with me some more…
If obedience is love then the Pharisees were right on target.
There’s this recurring theme you state that seems to say we need to prove our love to Jesus through our obedience. Jesus has no illusions about our love. We don’t have to prove anything to Him. “I would assume” is not in His vocabulary.
“If you love me, obey my commands.” Jesus doesn't say this. He does say something like it, but it is different. Why is it different? You think He is saying "Prove It or you will be excluded". I think He is saying "This is what Love will do in you".
Obedience is me training my body and soul to follow the ways of the Holy Spirit, bringing myself into submission because of the Holy Spirit power. Because I already know I am loved and accepted.
And because He has given me a spirit of Power and Love and Self-Control. (2 Timothy 1:7)
Jesus doesn’t want to control me, He wants me to control myself, and He has given me the supernatural power to do it.
Obedience is proving what the will of God is, but not proving it to Jesus, proving it to our flesh, and to our mind. (Romans 12:1-2)
Proving it to people around us. (Good Samaritan proved to be a better neighbor.)
Proving it to the enemy (Ephesians 3:10).
What a powerful thing obedience is, born out of a love for Christ, born out of His love for us. Nicodemus was an obedient guy, but Jesus said You must be born again!! Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit.
I don't mean to drive any wedges either, I have been very challenged by this topic (and my communication skills) and I post this with great respect.
Let me throw one more wrench into this discussion, here:
You said:
"You think He is saying 'Prove It or you will be excluded'. I think He is saying 'This is what Love will do in you'."
In trying to summarize the essence of what I am claiming, I said:
"We were chosen by God, and sanctified by The Spirit for obedience to Christ." - 1 Peter 1:1-2
I also said, "Love = Obedience".
You are saying love brings obedience, I am saying obedience shows love. The two are very similar, but I am going to take it one step further:
You can't have one without the other and be pleasing to God.
It is obedient to love (The two greatest commandments), and it is loving to obey (The verses we have talked about here.)
Look at John 15:9-14
"As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Now, remain in my love. IF you obey my commands, you WILL remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be COMPLETE. My command is this: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends IF you do what I command." (Emphasis mine)
Our joy is incomplete without love and/or without obedience. Jesus said we "remain in His love" and we "Are my (His) friends" IF we obey his commands.
You cannot separate love from obedience and have a saving relationship with Jesus.
You can't obey without love, because the greatest commandment is to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Therefore, without love, there is no obedience.
You also cannot love without obeying, because, as I have been saying in this discussion all along, we have no way of showing God our love, scripturally speaking, other than through obedience.
As my final example of this, I will use the reinstatement of the Apostle Peter in John 21:15-17. Jesus asked Peter 3 times, "Do you love me?" When Peter said "Yes," Jesus said, "Feed my sheep".
Jesus didn't settle the deal with Peter saying, "Yes, I love you," He called Peter to carry out His will. If you love me, obey my commands.
Let me tag this thought:
I don't think Jesus wants to exclude anybody, but obedience is how those who love Him are identified.
I think there is a simpler way to say all of this....just like in James, where it says faith with out works isnt faith at all, love without obedience isnt love at all... it is not that works save us, but if we have genuine saving faith, works is the natural effect of the cause of faith. if there are never any works, then there was never any faith. so if we never produce the fruit of obedience then there was never a seed of love.
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